Interview by David Reinharc.
The adventure of the "utopian return of Jews to their own history," according to the formula of Gershom Scholem, has long been part of socialism.
Ben Gurion, he knew, could then count on the support of virtually all of the left.
Today, part of the ultra-left likes to portray Israel in the guise of a discriminatory and racist exclusivism. Nevertheless, this radical fringe did not contaminate the left.
It is clear that if anti-Semitism is one of the best things shared in the world than the left, therefore, is not preserved, there is nothing to confirm the warning that launched Bernard-Henri Levy during the Lebanon war in 1982: "The anti-Zionist or anti-Semitism will not be. I would add: it will be left or will not." 1
It is always very difficult - especially at election time - to have a real discussion with a politician, bound hand and foot with Realpolitik, the "Dircom" and conditioning of public space by political correctness. Now, even if we can issue a number of reservations about some commitment PS - yes, of course, more rights for sexual minorities, no, certainly, the "gay marriage" and yes, even at the fight against communalism, not the calling of the Jews before the figure of the universal, because it often ends in prosecution - remains essential.
And most, including the Iranian nuclear threat, the Socialist Party does not use jargon. Taking note of the promises made by the annihilation of Iran, it does not send away from there, "the people elite, sure of itself and domineering "a plea of inadmissibility.
It will even consider the possibility of putting on the negotiation table the right of compensation for Jews who left Arab payas.
It is very clear from the interview with the spokesman for Ségolène Royal two things: first, the political spectrum non-overlapping, we can be right in Israel, the left vote in France, Deuxio, we can not share positions, blamed what we want but there is no merit in any way, to sound the alarm against anti-Zionism that is allegedly consubstantial to the left.
Reinharc-David: You have support Segolene Royal in his trip to the Middle East. She told a member of Hezbollah, sharing its analysis ("Jacques Chirac also says") on the U.S. war in Iraq. But can we criticize this war with Hezbollah while we are specifically trying to lose it with the Americans and against the Islamists?
Julien Dray: Segolene Royal was invited to the Lebanese Parliament as part of a commission - not an interview, in which Hezbollah headquarters. The representative of Hezbollah has engaged in a diatribe that has also been interpreted in contradictory ways - the interpreter was a diplomatic interpreter who synthesized the words-and in this context, she expressed her point of view, that the war in Iraq, it is clear the U.S. bogged down and the error has shown that war.
- DR: But she did not speak after Hezbollah but with him, as she said she shared his vision of the war in Iraq ...
- JD: When the weather is fine and that Le Pen says also, it does not mean it's bad ...
It does not say she agrees with Hezbollah, she said she shared the idea that this war is a failure.
- DR: What do you say to those who feel that this trip to the Middle East is a process of communication?
- JD: This is the only leader to have taken responsibility, even drawing the ire of lecturing, left and right. Agree with me that if this had been a "communication operation, it would probably not take the risk of the franchise and we would probably know better!
It is always easy to say nothing!
- DR: Take to your account the qualifier of "terrorist" used by Lionel Jospin about Hezbollah in 1999 and which earned him the "stoning" by Palestinian students from the University Bir Zeit?
- JD: The thing about Hezbollah is that there are interpretations of variable geometry: there is the Hezbollah that attack Israel, but there is Hezbollah which is a part of life Lebanon.
- DR: a component of Lebanese life at the hands of the Syrians and Iran ...
- JD: Yes, but it is a true component of Lebanese political life.
- DR: Would you be as forgiving if instead of Syrian ministers, there were Israeli ministers in the Lebanese government?
- JD: You're in the cartoon: Hezbollah represents 25% of the Lebanese electorate.
The debate is as follows: Hezbollah, like it or not, is a strong component of Lebanese political life. Can fight but we can not exclude it, except to take the risk of triggering a civil war in Lebanon.
- DR: Exactly, he has led Lebanon into war ...
- JD: I do not believe that diplomacy Israeli calls for ban on Hezbollah in Lebanon. It is, for them, a Lebanese affair.
- DR: And when Nasrallah calls on Arabs to leave Haifa on the eve of a planned bombing, because he will make a box on the Jews, is not this the definition of crime against humanity?
- JD: You mean to tell me that Hezbollah terrorist practices and aggressive? Yes, obviously.
But we can summarize the situation for this: he has in Lebanese politics and is a key to resolving the current crisis. It is not simply a puppet in the hands of Syria or Iran. There is a community problem in Lebanon where Hezbollah is an expression.
- DR: The document for the complexity of Lebanese politics. We can still call a spade a spade and Hezbollah, a terrorist?
- JD: Once again, we can not reduce it to that ...
- DR: Ms. Royal said in Israel be the only politician to claim the lack of access to civil nuclear on Iran. This position is it tenable to international institutions when we know that the NPT - signed by France and the international community - specifies that each country has the right to have access to nuclear energy for peaceful purposes. Ask yourself a revision of this treaty?
- JD: The problem is: there an article 3 that allows the community international control what happens on the nuclear level in a country signatory to the Non Proliferation Treaty. Iran does not comply with the application of Article 3, ie do not give all the necessary guarantees for the purpose of nuclear power.
From the moment he does not comply with Article 3, Article 4, which allows access to civilian nuclear technology is obsolete.
If the Iranian government does not control this, is that he has an idea in mind ... If
was only civilian nuclear power, Iran would control without qualms.
At the moment there is a suspicion must take its responsibilities at serious risk of proliferation would be the accession of Iran to nuclear weapons.
- DR: Do not you risk exacerbating Iranian nationalism by offering as a solution to the nuclear issue, cutting off electricity to the Iranian people?
- JD: Anyway, Iran has significant reserves and production of power its fleet of civil nuclear power is for ten years. Also, on energy supply from Iran, we can find ways of cooperation International that would allow Iran to have access to new solutions.
The Iranian people are hostage to the behavior of his government.
This is not Iran as an entity that is covered: the international community tries to protect itself against risk. The international community would like the normalization of Iran that marginalizes itself.
We can not, under any circumstances, take a risk of weakness in relation to the speech of Prime Minister Iranian warrior uttering unacceptable threats against Israel, even to wipe Israel off the map.
- DR: When some intellectuals believe that once the Israeli-Palestinian problem solved, finally sound the death knell of history and the world will go towards peace, it does not prepare us does not as a rude awakening?
- JD: It's true that one of the major conflicts in the world that crystallizes many passions and obsessions. Therefore it must be resolved quickly.
- DR: Do you really think that the Palestinian problem is the great concern of political Islam and dreaming of conquering erase the identity model in favor of the single Muslim identity?
- JD: Until a Palestinian state will not be established, it will be an additional argument and strong feeding the anger and humiliation of the Muslim world. A defining characteristic of Islam is to build on this feeling of humiliation.
- DR: The humiliation is also the abolition of the Caliphate, the end of the Ottoman Empire, Al Andalus ...
- JD: Right now, the Arab street, in Arab public opinion, the point of crystallization of this humiliation is the way people are treated Palestinian.
If you want to reduce international tensions in the world and open new prospects, the resolution of this conflict is important.
- DR: Without the persistence of this conflict, you think the war against Islamism plaguing humanity will be redeemed?
- JD: I did not say that. But it's true that it is a significant point of tension. And an argument of the Islamist movement would fall if it were possible to stop this conflict peacefully.
must also pay attention to the word: it must have a free thank you struggle against terrorism, but there is no war against Islam.
- DR: In all cases, we can not say that the "fraternal countries" seek to end the conflict ...
- JD: If I follow your logic, therefore, there will never be peace ...
- DR: Not so much is certain, that the Arab countries and Palestinians have clearly renounced the right of return ... Israel does not intend to commit suicide.
- JD: I understand that the Israelis were willing themselves to discuss these issues there and find new forms of compensation.
- DR: In this case, we must also compensate Jews who fled Arab countries?
- JD: Why not? The question is: how to find a solution to this conflict that plagues the region and the world. And how to prevent this conflict is an element of radicalization of the Arab world.
So we must find solutions without a winner and a loser.
- DR: To do this, should we not that the Arab countries continue to radicalize the Palestinian people and to serve the Jewish enemy as catharsis for their frustrations peoples?
- JD: I am a politician. My role is not to comment but to act, to find solutions. Or, you told me: there is no possible solution. And what remains?
- DR: Being a politician, is not it also take into account the tragic dimension of history?
- JD: I leave that to the creators of theater ...
- DR: Can we ignore the fact that after each embrace between Israelis and Palestinians, a Palestinian attack comes prohibit reconciliation?
- JD: I do not want to be a tragic conception of history.
The key again is to find solutions. It must be serious in any peace process: it must also integrate unfortunately the risk of disruptions and troublemakers. Obviously
negotiations can only occur in a period of calm tensions net, but we know very well that requiring absolute truce is to pose a condition that may prohibit any negotiation.
- DR: Let the Jews in France. You know the electoral argument Pascal Boniface: the PS should display his Palestinian sympathies to win the votes of a North African community in the electoral weight now incomparably heavier than the Jewish community ... You stated in Item that "the Jewish community has gone astray. She was transformed into a lobby to influence the policy of France. It is a suicidal attitude cons lobby lobby because she does not weight "
Do you feel, for once, closest to Boniface as DSK, which in 2003, asserted that" there were unauthorized notes, they were miserable?
- JD: No, I was not going in the direction of Pascal Boniface. For in his note, which is a problem, this is not the word "lobby". The problem is what he says the Jewish lobby is small, the Arab lobby has become and will be very strong, so the Socialist Party electorally more interest in being well with the Arab lobby with the Jewish lobby .
I say simply that we must abandon the logic of the lobby, and behave Republican. Because if we're going to lobby against a lobbying battle, lose the Jewish lobby.
- DR: Because you think that there is a "Jewish lobby"?
- JD: I think there is a temptation to the community in recent years to implement the American model. It is a mistake: the Jewish community must keep its republican traditions and refuse communitarianism.
- DR: You belong to the progressive movement. Today, all the fundamental constituents of the human subject - what Judaism calls the four letters of the real: father, mother, son, daughter - are sprayed. Today we talk about children's right to choose the name of their father or their mother, the PACS denies the distinction of male and feminine, is about to be cloned, it is surprising that the man be born again from the belly of a mother ... All this is there for you progress? 2
- JD: Nobody talked about the end of the distinction between masculine and feminine! For the female, should always be oppressed, subjected to man? That gives rights to people who have different sexual practices, is it a historical perspective? You would have them locked up homosexuals in the camps and they were destroyed, as did the Nazis?
- DR: We can criticize the PACS without necessarily being a follower of the Third Reich ...
- JD: The logic of your position is, nevertheless, surprising ... What is the conquest that enable individuals to have a status and rights, to be considered and respected because until to now they have been treated and oppressed because of their difference, for you it is a regressive view of history? History is it necessarily male dominatrix?
-DR: Is there a homophobic bastard if one dares to suggest that marriage is a man and a woman?
- JD: It is a social code, the marriage between a man and a woman, a code where you were educated. To you, marriage is necessarily XY: Well, I'm doing wrong cons in this vision!
Furthermore, do not mix everything: with regard to cloning and bioethical issues, we are now thinking not to impede the progress of research and at the same time, avoid it lead to unsafe practices in human terms.
- DR: In his report on antisemitism, Jean-Christophe Rufin proposes that legislation be added to the existing legal arsenal to punish "those who would without foundation against groups, institutions or states accusations of racism and would use about them unjustified comparisons with apartheid or Nazism. "
Do you support this report, noting the new clothes of anti-Semitism, wants to be justiciable in the courts, the anti-Zionist hatred?
- JD: It is not by law it passes, it is primarily a political struggle: in education, in the capacity of French society to respond and to condemn.
Today, it's not because it will harden the legislative arsenal that will fall so far this new surge of anti-Semitism. The law should not be an alibi for impotence.
- DR: You have launched SOS Racisme. Do you admit now, after Durban and hatred of Jews became an outlet for some of the young Muslims today Semitism Jews apostrophe in the name of anti racism?
- JD: Well, early 80s, a radical anti-Zionism wanted to provide the agenda traditional anti-Semitism. Must fight, but it is inconceivable to many that the anti-racist organizations are all anti-Semitic or that racism does not exist and should not be fought.
- DR: You said that Dieudonne has some responsibility in the climate that led to the murder of Ilan Halimi. Your reaction to the joint presence of officials of the FN, the former Socialist Minister of Foreign Affairs Roland Dumas and followers of theses conspiracy as Thierry Meyssan, the last show of Dieudonné?
- JD: On Dieudonne, I consider it is one element that contributed to trivialize a number of things in French society.
From the moment you install the idea as a thought leader, "the Jews is power," the Jews is money ", it is normal simple minds, interpreting these words, are taken to be criminal behavior.
Regarding Roland Dumas, I find it unfortunate that he went to this show and has forgotten the responsibility of Dieudonné in climate as it has deteriorated.
That said, I usually errors of Roland Dumas, that is not the first time he commits ...
- DR: How do you explain that the desecration of the Carpentras cemetery in 1990, has prompted a huge rally while in 2000, nobody has spoken out against the synagogues burned, Jewish children abused , the "Death to Jews!" sprung processions support the Palestinian cause?
- JD: I agree that there is a growing anti-Semitism, a trivialization. There is a setback, certainly, the spontaneity of the reaction.
should not infer that the company provided French anti-Semite is: the inner workings of French society still marked by the refusal of anti-Semitism.
I therefore does not the Jews of France to prepare their cases and I do not tell them that the only place where they can live well in the world is Israel.
- DR: President Moshe Katsav, visiting Paris, welcomed the French example in the fight against anti-Semitism ...
- JD: I have been more nuanced than the Israeli President ...
- DR: Now, I can not take the Paris metro with the yarmulke, without taking the risk of being physically attacked: so much so that the Grand Rabbi of France has advised young Jews wearing the hat ...
- JD: The value of the work of Nicolas Sarkozy may have been a little excessive, so ...
- DR: What do you suggest, the Socialist Party, the Jewish community in France, so she can enjoy the right to move freely and safely?
- JD: Like all Republican formations of this country, we are appalled by all anti-Semitic behavior and are ready to mobilize at any time to impose, if necessary, freedom of conscience.
It would be better for ministers to make less boastful community gatherings (Editor's note: referring to the dinner of CRIF) and be more effective in daily life.
must enforce laws, punish anti-Semitic behavior, and above all education must respect, tolerance. We must not allow schools some anti-Semitic behavior whatsoever.
- DR: The problem is when young thugs from the suburbs, encouraged by the alliance of ultra left and Islamism, burn the schools ...
- JD: The Muslim progressivism is still very marginal. It should reduce neither the policy nor the left at that!
You have a phobia of some kind of leftist Islamic movement that is trying to dominate the battle Progressive!
In Latin America, there is not Chavez, it is also Lula, Bachelet and even Eva Morales.
You shut up in the tragic vision of history ... but I see this as a very strong temptation for Jews - in terms of their history, for that matter - to be locked in that vision.
I do not think that history repeats itself consistently.
is really a tragic temptation of the Jewish people think that all over again.
- DR: The dispute between Israel and the left does not it precisely the opposition between Back to Israel, the half-turn of a bad student pessimistic and anxious: the Jewish people, hoping to stop the assimilation process began with the Emancipation and the faith of the Socialists in Progress , the impatient expectation of the advent a beautiful humanity, optimism of the imminent realization of a promise exciting?
- JD: I do not think the establishment of the State of Israel is a regression of history but on the contrary, I see it as a step thereof.
Those who voted for the birth of the creation of the State of Israel to the UN, it was often, the majority of progressive nations.
- DR: Segolene Royal is in the tradition of Francois Mitterrand, ie the man who at the end of his life, confided to Jean d'Ormesson that Jews ruled the world ...
- JD: It's still annoying that someone would criticize a missing person who is no longer able to defend themselves ... If John Ormesson heard these words at the time, I then blames them for not being offended, not to have severed relations with François Mitterrand.
What counts for me is not that kind of gossip and soundbites, but the presence of François Mitterrand in the Knesset, his commitment to Israel, he has always been a strong supporter the fight against racism and antisemitism, and its very close, Dayan as Paul or his wife's family, were Jews.
I worked with François Mitterrand and I always saw his admiration for the Jewish people.
Make this small trial after Mitterrand's death is unbearable.
- DR: How does one live his Jewishness at the political level where you are?
-JD: Quietly and calmly.
- DR: Do you think there may be a Jewish president in France. (Strauss Kahn, Laurent Fabius, for example)?
- JD: The paradox of French society is in France that has the most contenders in the presidential election Jews or of Jewish origin.
(1) quoted by Alexis Lacroix: "When anti-Semitism becomes left" The Roundtable.
(2) v. Benny Lévy and Alain Finkielkraut: The Book and books. Talks on secularism. Verdier (p.63)
interview published in Israel Magazine No. 73
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